Curse

Carinae · Nov 30, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Take away the timer, take away energy from minions, and drastically reduce the cost of all minion skills and maybe I could sign on to that idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Take away energy gain from minions is like taking away Divine from Monk spells and Strength to Warrior attack skills.

Currently minions trigger SR and that is a part of what makes SR unpredictable. The fact that they trigger SR, but don't leave a corpse is a major part of the problem for SR, because it means you can't reliably count on SR for energy returns.

So make it so minions don't trigger SR, but every player/monster does trigger it and you'll see the energy situation improve even without reducing minion costs.

More energy for PvE MMs, no exploitability for PvP necros, everyone wins.

Turtle222 · Dec 10, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

/notsigned

i find SR timer to be suitable, as there is no way getting 12-16 energy a death is fair :S, if the timer is removed, perhaps we will see many n/e's running about

Vinraith · Dec 10, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle222

perhaps we will see many n/e's running about

Alongside a JB MM it's already viable to run a necro pretending to be an ele, actually, or any other caster class for that matter (aside from perhaps healer monk). Removing the timer would make an already preposterously exploitable mechanic even more exploitable.

Carinae · Dec 10, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Alongside a JB MM it's already viable to run a necro pretending to be an ele, actually, or any other caster class for that matter (aside from perhaps healer monk). Removing the timer would make an already preposterously exploitable mechanic even more exploitable.

And the solution to that is to do either of the following:

1) Remove all SR returns from minions entirely (as well as removing the timer and reducing minion costs)

2) Remove SR returns from other peoples minions (still remove the timer, but leave minion costs alone).

People complain about SR, they even unknowingly manage to specify the problem, but they can't seem to suggest anything besides: screw necros!

Vinraith · Dec 10, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

And the solution to that is to do either of the following:

1) Remove all SR returns from minions entirely (as well as removing the timer and reducing minion costs)

2) Remove SR returns from other peoples minions (still remove the timer, but leave minion costs alone).

People complain about SR, they even unknowingly manage to specify the problem, but they can't seem to suggest anything besides: screw necros!

You're talking to a person whose main is a necro primary and who usually runs with a party of 3-7 other necros, why would I want to screw them? I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one. Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.

You can't see me · Dec 11, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I'm going to say this right now. Removing the timer is not the answer. Sure, it's not IMBA it some areas, but for others, it's like it's raining energy, which, there's no argument that that wouldn't be at all right, unless you just like to see things get owned no matter what difficulty they're so supposed to be, and you think everything should be /godmode. It needs to be thought out again. I do agree, however, that pets should count as corpses. Minions on the other hand should not.

Turbobusa · Dec 11, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

The 15 seconds timer is ok imo... very abusable in PvE while keeping the PvP abuses away. Now about no energy from minions I'm still not sure... I'd prefer the timer to stay along with my minions feeding my blue bar.

Carinae · Dec 11, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.

Well, my apologies then. I seem to be grouchy today.

Sleeper Service · Dec 11, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

has anyone tried running a MM build with zero in SR? some of the "solutions" here seem to approximate that.

im going to try that out now, im not sure if lowering the casting cost of said minions will be a solution. My feeling is that Increasing the resistance/HP, decreasing degen (even removing it entirely?) of minions would be necessary.

Necro class was designed from the START with the concept that they would gain energy from minions. removing that mechanism would simply mean that necros would no longer be that class we have played these last 2 years.

a total skill rebalance would be needed. not only for Ne but ALL classes in relation to the new form it would have taken.

Chthon · Dec 11, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one.

For the record, there's a half-dozen or so buff-here-and-nerf-there alternatives for soul reaping I'm willing to get behind. (Including the option of: remover timer + remove SR from minions + drastically reduce minion costs.) All of them include removing the timer, though.

I did not include anything more in OP than just "remove the damn timer" because:
1) A-net is lazy; the more you ask for, the less likely you are to get it.
2) A-net loves to nerf more than buff; if we ask for "nerf in way X and buff in way Y," we're likely to end up with just "nerf in way X."
3) I am much more concerned with getting SR working well than with making SR "balanced" in PvE. The timer is very clunky and it makes for a very poor gameplay experience. It absolutely must go. Now. A total non-impact in PvP is a certainty. We can worry about PvE "balance" later (if at all).

Vinraith · Dec 11, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

has anyone tried running a MM build with zero in SR? some of the "solutions" here seem to approximate that.

Which solutions are those? I don't see anyone proposing that SR shouldn't generate energy from non-minion deaths. An MM with zero SR would get no energy from deaths of any kind, and thus is not a legitimate test.

Sleeper Service · Dec 11, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

there is no other way to test it.

seeing as a huge disproportionate amount of energy is coming from minions then...

upier · Dec 11, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Take away the timer, take away energy from minions, and drastically reduce the cost of all minion skills and maybe I could sign on to that idea.

Now let's think about that.
Especially if we bring this in:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think you've gotten the wrong impression. MM is extremely powerful -- arguably more powerful than any other build from any class -- for the vast majority of the game, both normal and hard modes. Obviously, it doesn't work in places where corpses are few. Other than that, it also has trouble in a small handful of zones where the monsters can pretty much insta-kill the poor little guys, most of which are in Hard Mode. (I might also add that, when most people think they've hit the point that the monsters are killing the minions too easily, they are WRONG! What they have hit is the point where they need to learn how to use BotM + their self-heal properly.) So, no, you will practically never find yourself unwanted.

Basically - even with the current e-return the MM is a god in most places.
And we want to make them better?
Ohh and let's buff SY+TNTF and UB while we are at it!

elsalamandra · Dec 11, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I most honestly believe that the 'egg-timer' will never be removed.

It has been in place for quite a while now.

My primary char is Necro and the best thing we can all do is just adapt and 'get on with it'. I did and there are times where energy can be a problem but hey its not the end of the world for me.

If you are doing stuff with H/H make one of them secondary Necro and stick BR on it or use energy management skills.

This thread clearly shows 2 things.

1/ Anet are not really interested in either reading it and acting on all the input made by all concerned, or

2/ They have no intention of resetting or bettering the situation.

So best thing is to adapt, no point in moaning or making sugestions and no point in PvP'ers and PvE'ers alike flaming each other as is normally the case in threads of this nature.

VinnyRidira · Dec 11, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Listen to us ANet : redress this stupid NERF, please.

Turtle222 · Dec 11, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

Listen to us ANet : redress this stupid NERF, please.

dont say us, because i don't agree with you. i think the nerf is fine

DDL · Dec 11, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

You're talking to a person whose main is a necro primary and who usually runs with a party of 3-7 other necros, why would I want to screw them? I would like a reason to take something other than a necromancer when it's available, though, and the current system (and especially the proposed SR timer removal in the OP) doesn't really provide one. Both of your solutions are pretty good, and I've already repeatedly voiced my support for option #1 in this thread, so I'm not exactly sure what your accusation is supposed to be aimed towards.

The problem with SR here is that it's completely character independent. It's just fine with one or maybe two necros in an eight-man team. The death-derived energy nicely allows the necros to synchronise with everyone else and all are happy.

Of course, SR triggers per death for EVERY character with a necro primary, which is why all-necro teams are so broken. With four+ necros merrily killing stuff you pretty much never need to even bother looking at the little blue bar: it will be full.

Think about it:
one necro per team = 12-16 total energy per death
eight necros per team = 96-128 total energy per death (!!!!!)

Add in minions and it gets silly: You could have a minion-bomber build necro in there PURELY to supply the rest of the team with energy. It'd probably work better than a BiP necro, really.

Honestly though, I kinda LIKE this: it's broken, sure, but it's not something that will crop up ALL the time, and it does require either a lot of like-minded people or a mass of heroes. And it's unlikely to ever really impact on PvP, since there isn't enough constant death to fuel it now that spirits are out.

(Also, Vinraith: I know you already KNOW all this, but others might not have worked out how silly all necro teams can be)

RhanoctJocosa · Dec 11, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

omg why does it matter. in pve energy is never a problem. in pvp necros don't rely on SR unless they're running a bs gimmick. bs gimmicks are bad. therefore sr timer = fine.

!!

cthulhu reborn · Dec 11, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

.

Necro class was designed from the START with the concept that they would gain energy from minions. removing that mechanism would simply mean that necros would no longer be that class we have played these last 2 years.

.

I don't get this reasoning. Necro's aren't the class we have played for 2 years by the chances made to SR and now the Spirit nerf. So I don't see how having played it for a couple of years changes anything...in fact the last 2 nerfs have already proven that that doesn't stand in Anet's way.

The timer would be much better imo if it trigged once every 5 seconds rather than 3 times every 15 seconds. That would give a much more consistent picture as far as I'm concerned.

Sleeper Service · Dec 11, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I don't get this reasoning. Necro's aren't the class we have played for 2 years by the chances made to SR and now the Spirit nerf. So I don't see how having played it for a couple of years changes anything...in fact the last 2 nerfs have already proven that that doesn't stand in Anet's way.

The timer would be much better imo if it trigged once every 5 seconds rather than 3 times every 15 seconds. That would give a much more consistent picture as far as I'm concerned.

changing the way the timer works (or adding one) is a small adjustment to the main attribute.

stopping energy gain from minions throws the whole minion battery out the window. Is that a bad thing? i dont know.

will it redefine the class as a whole?

definitely.